Hello all.
Looking into purchasing a laser to complement my sign making business. I'm particularly interested in metal marking, as well as acrylics, so any experiences and opinions on the metal work would be appreciated. I'm planning on visiting HPC soon to hopefully see a machine in action but it would be nice to have some views on what I should look out for.
Smashing.
Andy.
Hello. Andy in Northants
Re: Hello. Andy in Northants
Hi Andy, welcome 
Dave
Dave
Using two LS3060's and an ex 3020 user
Please note I am not employed by HPC, any advice or recomendations I give are based on my own experience and are not necessarily the same as HPC's. First point of contact on any hardware issues should be with HPC
Please note I am not employed by HPC, any advice or recomendations I give are based on my own experience and are not necessarily the same as HPC's. First point of contact on any hardware issues should be with HPC
Re: Hello. Andy in Northants
Hiya Andy,
A visit to HPC is well worth it, there is very little Chris and the guys won't be able to answer
The following is a CNP from my site
"So like many people you have likely been looking round the web to see if you can find a suitable laser machine to purchase. With so much choice it can be quite confusing to work out what fits your requirements ,how much power, what size, what supplier etc.
Hopefully this will make your decision a little easier and will point out many of the benefits and drawbacks of buying your first machine.
Do I really need a laser?
It may seem a strange question on a forum dedicated to laser machines but you would be surprised at the number of people who spend money on a Laser only to find out it's not what they really wanted. The first consideration should be "will a laser actually do what I want?"
In many cases the answer is yes but not always "as shipped" so you may need to look at your requirements a little closer. If your going to be cutting thick materials like wood (10mm and above) then you will be needing power, LOTS of power if you want your work to run at anywhere near decent speeds. While thinking about those thick materials you will also need to consider if you can put up with burnt edges on your cut outs or smut on the surface of the job as well as the angular nature of the cut a laser produces. Also you should consider that lasers work effectively in two dimensions NOT three,if you need a lot of surface processing then a laser isn't going to be much use.
If you need clean edges and no carbonisation and 3d details then in reality a laser probably isn't the best tool for the job, personally I'd be looking at a cnc router as they will cut a LOT deeper (even a cheap one will cut 70mm thick) and allow programming of all 3 axis for surface work. While being able to advertise a product as "Laser Cut" can be a great selling point (people assume lasers are super accurate *death star* type machines) they are only as good as the limitations mentioned above.
In short it's a case of ensuring you are buying the correct tool for the job you intend to do.
If after taking that all into account you still want a laser then read on and lets see about what sort of size will be useful.
How big a machine should I get?
This is the 64,000 dollar question and the one that is most likely to end in a bad decision.
It seems to be the nature of "Murphys Law" that if something can go wrong it will,if you're buying to do contract cutting then the first job you decide to take on will most likely either be a mm too thick for your machine to cut or 10mm wider than the available travel in one of the axis. That sadly is the nature of pretty much every machine tool purchase made and being honest it's never something you're going to avoid.
The easiest way I found is to look at the general model I have for what I want to do with the laser and add 20% to the size I actually *need*, this will cover for the odd job that crops up without me needing to buy a bigger machine or have a simple cut done by an outside company. If you are buying for a dedicated purpose that never changes then go with a machine that has 5% more space than you need as this will make aligning the materials onto the bed a little easier and quicker.
How much power do I want?
This is one consideration that will make some of the decisions for you, if you want to cut quickly through thick materials you will need to have a more powerful tube, while tubes can go up to 250 watts from some companies I tend to advise not to go over 130 watt tubes.
There is a good reason for this, while the higher power tubes are indeed quicker they also generate smoke and fumes at a faster rate meaning your extraction has to work that much harder. They also generate a LOT of heat into your cooling system meaning you will need to look at what cooling you provide for the systems water. Up to 130 watts this can be managed by one of the more affordable chiller units for example the CW3000 or CW5000 chiller systems but once you get to 150 watts+ you may need to look at dedicated chillers that can get expensive VERY quickly.
The machines physical size will also effectively limit your power maximums as the tubes get a lot longer at higher powers, the smallest machine that will easily take any commercial tube is the 1290 series of machines. Under this size you will be limited to what size tube will actually fit into the cabinet.
Remember in all but 1 or 2 cases changing your tube for a more powerful version means changing the power supply as well, on 60 - 80 watt tubes this isn't too expensive but once you get over 80 watts the price seems to double quite quickly.
To sum up on power? go for the highest power you are likely to need but don't go in for overkill "just because you can".
What types of tube or laser source do I get?
Again this will limit what your machine can and cannot actually do. For base purposes a CO2 laser of the kind we are looking at won't cut metal (there are ways round this but that's for another section).
So sticking to the basic types of tube or source we are choosing between RF excited air cooled and DC excited water cooled glass tubes.
RF:
You will see quite a few companies claiming that RF excited sources can last up to 30,000 hours of use and provide and much more *aligned* beam over DC glass tubes and while this is true there are some things you won't get told when you come to buy one.
To replace a cartridge type RF tube you can be paying anywhere between £5,000 and £10,000 depending on power output. Every year to 2 years they need to have their gas source refilled at a net cost of some £3,000 (and this is whether they have been used for 10 hours or 10,000 hours) so always factor in these costs into any business model you may have. The 30,000 hours story is true but most people don't "read for content" and will just see the 30,000 hours number. What most will miss is the "UP TO" precursor, in actual experiences of RF tubes they can actually die after as little as 500 hours so be sure to ask your RF source supplier just how long the warranty is on your expensive source. Look for a warranty that says "2 years or 20,000 hours whichever comes first" and I'll bet you will be hard pressed to find anybody that will offer you that.
DC:
Much much cheaper to buy and acceptable quality but again the same claims are often made about these kinds of tubes to. "up to 10,000 hours lifetime" for some of the "Professional tubes" with a more usual claim of 1,500 hours being typical claims for standard tubes. Again we need to see the "UP TO" precursor, I've seen tubes of this type go bang in as little as 100 hours and others last up to 3,000 - 4,000 hours. To replace a 40 watt tube is a tad under £200 with an 80 watt at under £400 for a standard tube so if yours does go pop it's not a major financial investment to replace it.
Overall my personal recommendation would be to stick with DC excited glass tubes and err on the side of budget over claims of extended life. £100,000 machine with a £5,000 source sounds fine but looking at it realistically a £5,000 machine with a £5,000 source in it??
After all would you buy a Ford Focus and stick a Ferrari engine in it? "
To be blunt about who to buy from??
I'd go direct to Chris / HPC. A few others in the UK may save you 50 quid here or there but their aftersales is rubbish and they actually know very little about their products.
In the last 4 years I've not seen anybody get close to HPC in their levels of support.
best wishes
Dave
A visit to HPC is well worth it, there is very little Chris and the guys won't be able to answer
The following is a CNP from my site
"So like many people you have likely been looking round the web to see if you can find a suitable laser machine to purchase. With so much choice it can be quite confusing to work out what fits your requirements ,how much power, what size, what supplier etc.
Hopefully this will make your decision a little easier and will point out many of the benefits and drawbacks of buying your first machine.
Do I really need a laser?
It may seem a strange question on a forum dedicated to laser machines but you would be surprised at the number of people who spend money on a Laser only to find out it's not what they really wanted. The first consideration should be "will a laser actually do what I want?"
In many cases the answer is yes but not always "as shipped" so you may need to look at your requirements a little closer. If your going to be cutting thick materials like wood (10mm and above) then you will be needing power, LOTS of power if you want your work to run at anywhere near decent speeds. While thinking about those thick materials you will also need to consider if you can put up with burnt edges on your cut outs or smut on the surface of the job as well as the angular nature of the cut a laser produces. Also you should consider that lasers work effectively in two dimensions NOT three,if you need a lot of surface processing then a laser isn't going to be much use.
If you need clean edges and no carbonisation and 3d details then in reality a laser probably isn't the best tool for the job, personally I'd be looking at a cnc router as they will cut a LOT deeper (even a cheap one will cut 70mm thick) and allow programming of all 3 axis for surface work. While being able to advertise a product as "Laser Cut" can be a great selling point (people assume lasers are super accurate *death star* type machines) they are only as good as the limitations mentioned above.
In short it's a case of ensuring you are buying the correct tool for the job you intend to do.
If after taking that all into account you still want a laser then read on and lets see about what sort of size will be useful.
How big a machine should I get?
This is the 64,000 dollar question and the one that is most likely to end in a bad decision.
It seems to be the nature of "Murphys Law" that if something can go wrong it will,if you're buying to do contract cutting then the first job you decide to take on will most likely either be a mm too thick for your machine to cut or 10mm wider than the available travel in one of the axis. That sadly is the nature of pretty much every machine tool purchase made and being honest it's never something you're going to avoid.
The easiest way I found is to look at the general model I have for what I want to do with the laser and add 20% to the size I actually *need*, this will cover for the odd job that crops up without me needing to buy a bigger machine or have a simple cut done by an outside company. If you are buying for a dedicated purpose that never changes then go with a machine that has 5% more space than you need as this will make aligning the materials onto the bed a little easier and quicker.
How much power do I want?
This is one consideration that will make some of the decisions for you, if you want to cut quickly through thick materials you will need to have a more powerful tube, while tubes can go up to 250 watts from some companies I tend to advise not to go over 130 watt tubes.
There is a good reason for this, while the higher power tubes are indeed quicker they also generate smoke and fumes at a faster rate meaning your extraction has to work that much harder. They also generate a LOT of heat into your cooling system meaning you will need to look at what cooling you provide for the systems water. Up to 130 watts this can be managed by one of the more affordable chiller units for example the CW3000 or CW5000 chiller systems but once you get to 150 watts+ you may need to look at dedicated chillers that can get expensive VERY quickly.
The machines physical size will also effectively limit your power maximums as the tubes get a lot longer at higher powers, the smallest machine that will easily take any commercial tube is the 1290 series of machines. Under this size you will be limited to what size tube will actually fit into the cabinet.
Remember in all but 1 or 2 cases changing your tube for a more powerful version means changing the power supply as well, on 60 - 80 watt tubes this isn't too expensive but once you get over 80 watts the price seems to double quite quickly.
To sum up on power? go for the highest power you are likely to need but don't go in for overkill "just because you can".
What types of tube or laser source do I get?
Again this will limit what your machine can and cannot actually do. For base purposes a CO2 laser of the kind we are looking at won't cut metal (there are ways round this but that's for another section).
So sticking to the basic types of tube or source we are choosing between RF excited air cooled and DC excited water cooled glass tubes.
RF:
You will see quite a few companies claiming that RF excited sources can last up to 30,000 hours of use and provide and much more *aligned* beam over DC glass tubes and while this is true there are some things you won't get told when you come to buy one.
To replace a cartridge type RF tube you can be paying anywhere between £5,000 and £10,000 depending on power output. Every year to 2 years they need to have their gas source refilled at a net cost of some £3,000 (and this is whether they have been used for 10 hours or 10,000 hours) so always factor in these costs into any business model you may have. The 30,000 hours story is true but most people don't "read for content" and will just see the 30,000 hours number. What most will miss is the "UP TO" precursor, in actual experiences of RF tubes they can actually die after as little as 500 hours so be sure to ask your RF source supplier just how long the warranty is on your expensive source. Look for a warranty that says "2 years or 20,000 hours whichever comes first" and I'll bet you will be hard pressed to find anybody that will offer you that.
DC:
Much much cheaper to buy and acceptable quality but again the same claims are often made about these kinds of tubes to. "up to 10,000 hours lifetime" for some of the "Professional tubes" with a more usual claim of 1,500 hours being typical claims for standard tubes. Again we need to see the "UP TO" precursor, I've seen tubes of this type go bang in as little as 100 hours and others last up to 3,000 - 4,000 hours. To replace a 40 watt tube is a tad under £200 with an 80 watt at under £400 for a standard tube so if yours does go pop it's not a major financial investment to replace it.
Overall my personal recommendation would be to stick with DC excited glass tubes and err on the side of budget over claims of extended life. £100,000 machine with a £5,000 source sounds fine but looking at it realistically a £5,000 machine with a £5,000 source in it??
After all would you buy a Ford Focus and stick a Ferrari engine in it? "
To be blunt about who to buy from??
I'd go direct to Chris / HPC. A few others in the UK may save you 50 quid here or there but their aftersales is rubbish and they actually know very little about their products.
In the last 4 years I've not seen anybody get close to HPC in their levels of support.
best wishes
Dave
Please note I am not employed by HPC, any advice or recomendations I give are based on my own experience and are not necessarily the same as HPC's. First point of contact on any hardware issues should be with HPC
Dave@OpticalPower.co.uk
Dave@OpticalPower.co.uk
Re: Hello. Andy in Northants
Thanks for the welcome, and for the information Dave. I have had a brief chat with HPC at a sign show last year and they were very helpful. Now the time has come to look more seriously at a laser so I will be arranging a visit this week. I already have some product ideas so I trust they will point me in the right direction regarding machine choice. Sod's law says that whatever size machine I go for I'll get a job that requires a bigger one but I do know a couple of people with very large lasers so I'll deal with that as it happens.
One other point: how much learning is there to do in order to get the best out of a machine? I'm used to working slightly less technically demanding equipment. Ah, I'll pick it up. Probably.
Andy
One other point: how much learning is there to do in order to get the best out of a machine? I'm used to working slightly less technically demanding equipment. Ah, I'll pick it up. Probably.
Andy
Re: Hello. Andy in Northants
To get the best out of it? not much effort to be honest Andy.
You do need to have some kind of input though, drawings, pictures and at least a basic command of a good graphics or Cad program are essential.
If you go in for buying a laser without at least some drawing experience or skills it can make ownership quite stressful. If you are in the signs business already then I doubt it's going to be any kind of problem
Buying a laser alone won't make a business, buying a laser as a part of your overall business model is a fantastic idea.
best wishes
Dave
You do need to have some kind of input though, drawings, pictures and at least a basic command of a good graphics or Cad program are essential.
If you go in for buying a laser without at least some drawing experience or skills it can make ownership quite stressful. If you are in the signs business already then I doubt it's going to be any kind of problem
Buying a laser alone won't make a business, buying a laser as a part of your overall business model is a fantastic idea.
best wishes
Dave
Please note I am not employed by HPC, any advice or recomendations I give are based on my own experience and are not necessarily the same as HPC's. First point of contact on any hardware issues should be with HPC
Dave@OpticalPower.co.uk
Dave@OpticalPower.co.uk
Re: Hello. Andy in Northants
Thanks Dave.
I've been using vector and bitmap design software for 25 years professionally, so I'm quite happy in that respect. As you say, this is to broaden the range of products I can produce in-house, not a sole product line. I'm a believer in expansion during lean times. If work is quiet, do more. That kind of thing.
Andy
I've been using vector and bitmap design software for 25 years professionally, so I'm quite happy in that respect. As you say, this is to broaden the range of products I can produce in-house, not a sole product line. I'm a believer in expansion during lean times. If work is quiet, do more. That kind of thing.
Andy
Re: Hello. Andy in Northants
Same here Andy,
My line up has increased over the last year from 300 items to 900 and it's paid off quite well
best wishes
Dave
My line up has increased over the last year from 300 items to 900 and it's paid off quite well
best wishes
Dave
Please note I am not employed by HPC, any advice or recomendations I give are based on my own experience and are not necessarily the same as HPC's. First point of contact on any hardware issues should be with HPC
Dave@OpticalPower.co.uk
Dave@OpticalPower.co.uk
Re: Hello. Andy in Northants
Im one for diversification. I sell electronics, tools, and laser cut products as well as custom jobs!
http://www.tmbelectronics.com - Electronics, tools, hobby tools, power tools, and much more!
An ex LS3020 user now playing with an LS6840PRO (60W) and an LS1290PRO (80W)
An ex LS3020 user now playing with an LS6840PRO (60W) and an LS1290PRO (80W)
Re: Hello. Andy in Northants
I was Phil, now I'm just doing Laser Plans / Draughting Work, Pin Tables and Mirrors / Lens's.
I'm still making bits for lasers but not commercially any more. It's a case of time, I'd rather support a few things well than a lot of things not so well
Still seems like I don't get enough hours in the day, it's Sunday and I'm still assembling test models......
best wishes
Dave
I'm still making bits for lasers but not commercially any more. It's a case of time, I'd rather support a few things well than a lot of things not so well
Still seems like I don't get enough hours in the day, it's Sunday and I'm still assembling test models......
best wishes
Dave
Please note I am not employed by HPC, any advice or recomendations I give are based on my own experience and are not necessarily the same as HPC's. First point of contact on any hardware issues should be with HPC
Dave@OpticalPower.co.uk
Dave@OpticalPower.co.uk
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